專訪別名 Hiro Kone 的紐約音樂人 Nicky Mao。Interview with New York based musician Nicky Mao aka Hiro Kone.
台灣製作人 Imryll 的首集節目。Taiwan based producer Imryll first residency episode.
30 分鐘的個人音樂創作。30min piece of original music.
今集Footwork Programme 的客席主持。 Guest of the Footwork Programme.
廠牌旗下的 Patrick Ellis 送上的1小時節目。 Patrick Ellis whose release The Deserter was out on the label in August 2021.
邀請嘉賓 blottir 。shimmer winter edition with guest blottir.
Episode 2 of The Guestlist is full of Eastern and Arabic sample heavy beats for the first hour. The final hour sees UK Leeds based selector Tristan Myatt play a selection of chillers to soothe the soul.
Restless Leg Syndrome – Jamal
Restless Leg Syndrome – Venom
El 3ou – Ardh Sabra
El 3ou -Manich Menra
Moulay Ahmed El Hassani – Ana Mazal Kanabghik
Ghoula – Ba 77it
KNMD – In Our Eyes
The Beast – Road Song
Invisible Roads – Common Path
Maurice Louca – The Leper
Dreamcastmoe – You had Better Deliver
Markus & Shahzad – Kala Kaba
Liluzu – Nano
ize – Ring Ring
Tinashe – I Can see the Future
Simo Cell – Short Leg
Glimmerman – Step mode
Anonymous Club – Permission (feat. Tama Gucci)
STILL, Biga Yut & Florence – Ntwala
STILL, Biga Yut – Plupawa
iTi – As Time Passes
Cortese – Abbey Park
Marc Brauner – Your Heart
Moktar – Blue
Tinashe – X (feat. Jeremih)
DJ Crisps – Dynamic Reflections
DJ Manny – Club Gta
Bakey – Bring it back
Mark Blair – Badman Acid
Tinashe – Die a little Bit (feat. Ms Banks)
UNIQU3 – Unavailable (feat. R3LL)
Cortese – Where you at?
Bakey & Slay – Vibing Season
BE3K – Turn it up
1-800 GIRLS – I want to know (Do you want it right now?)
DJ Heartstring – Endless Desire
STILL, Biga Yut – Tukoona Nalo
D.Dan – Post Kyiv
Yung Acid – Do U Wanna Bitch
Bolam – Hype Shifter
Paul & Shark – Selectavision
C O N T X T – Rise again
Bakongo – Level Cowbell
DJ Seinfeld – Someday
Koreltsak – Shrike on a dead tree
Glossolalia – Gift of Tongues
Dystopia – Stress Builds Character
Premature Ejaculation – Partial And Complete
G.I.S.M – Fire
destroy 2 – life is eat & die
Pazuzelhomet – Winged shadows over the Sarcophagus of the lost Cowlcult
Coke Bust – Pain And Suffering
Drug Problem – Sexually Transmitted Text Message
Throneum – Godless Antihuman Evil
Azazel – Lord of Demons
Lurker of Chalice – Minions
Abigail – Sexual Metal Holocaust
Satanize – Hellish Vandalism
Warloghe – Corpse Altar Light
（Scroll down for English Version）
語言是Nicky Mao (毛恩馨) 談論音樂時常出現的主題。她在紐約學習創意寫作，但最終以Hiro Kone的名義憑藉音樂建立起自己的語言。從幼小時期開始，她就和音樂建立起深厚的連繫，不只因為她小時學過音樂—她的很多回憶都依附於某些家庭事件發生時，所播放的音樂；作為獨生小孩，她的孤單體驗也加深了她和音樂的聯繫。然而，直至在多年以後，她才發現，在自己感興趣的事情之中—包括寫作—音樂才是最自然的，最吸引她的東西。音樂才是她註定用於溝通的語言。
在疫情下，空間成了Nicky思考的非常重要的問題。她思考音樂所存在的空間：封城期間，空間的缺失使她沒法說服自己做線上直播表演—『（在現場演出時）空間裡的聲音，聲音的震盪和混響，這些東西全都非常重要。』但也不止是物理空間。Nicky留意到這股把全套生活搬到線上的勢頭，她卻選擇後退一步進行觀察，而非欣然地加入這場派對。她對資本主義，科技法西斯主義，對不斷取得「進步」的科技與及許多人糟糕的物質條件所形成的極端反差…關於這些事情的思考（而其中的很多她在疫情前已有進行探索），最終匯合成了『拒絕填充空間的衝動』這一直覺指引。在這條指引下，她寫出了第四張全長專輯，Silvercoat the throng。我跟Nicky聊了無常、寂靜、陰影和空間—這些事情大多指向我們所缺乏，而且在主動逃避的一種空虛。
訪問：梁安琳 Anlin Liang
這和我的其他作品，以及我過去就我的作品談論過的事情都是有聯繫的，比方說我前一張專輯 A Fossil Begins to Bray。很多的這些想法都是連續的。如果我們不去思考我們進步的方向，這樣的進步並不是我想要的。要不然我們就只是一味地維持這個機器的運轉，然而我認為我們有重新想像事物的機會。
你有看過紀錄片Summer of Soul嗎？這部影片紀錄的是1969年發生的哈萊姆文化節，同年還有人類歷史上的第一次登月。觀眾裡的一位黑人男性被採訪者問到他對此事件的看法。他說的大概是那些錢本該可以用來解決貧窮問題，住房問題等等。最近媒體不是在說現在沒人關心億萬富翁的太空競賽嗎，但我看到那個採訪我才意識到，這樣的感想其實並不是最近才產生的。
我最近讀了魯哈·本傑明（Ruha Benjamin）的Race after Technology，感覺非常貼合當下—考慮到我們對科技的依賴越來越深。她寫的是新興科技如何鞏固白人至上主義。我還提到了韓炳哲（Byung Chul-han）。我也喜歡唐娜·哈拉維（Donna Haraway）, （她寫的是）我們和周遭世界的關係，而不只是人類之間的關係。但其實我今年讀的大部分是詩歌—又回到需要空間的這個話題上。我在過去讀了很多的批判理論，然而過去的兩年裡我沒法讀太多理論。我要暫停一下，開始讀詩歌。在詩歌裡有給我大腦的空間，給我呼吸的空間。
我很喜歡雪萊﹙Percy Shelley）。我拜訪過他隱藏在羅馬的墳墓，那個墓園裡住著很多貓，感覺是一個很合適的地點。我最近還發現了一個名為Garous Abdolmalekian的伊朗詩人，他的詩最近才第一次被翻譯為英文。我真心推薦Lean Against This Late Hour這個系列。
我生活在一個給以色列「國防」軍 （Israel Defense Forces, IDF）資助上百億美元的國家，但實際上他們是「佔領（occupation）」軍，壓迫巴勒斯坦人民，讓他們活在恐懼中。我曾跟希伯倫的一個年輕人談話，他告訴我在他還是個青少年時，IOF曾試圖在他身上栽贓一把刀，若不是他的鄰居及時望出窗外，他就會被他們射殺了。美國對那裡發生的事情有很大的干涉權力。我們與其息息相關，是需要負責任的。因此我支持我的朋友及他們回歸家園的權利。
Hiro Kone 於Dais Records推出的第四張全長專輯 Silvercoat the throng 現已推出，連結收聽。
Language is a recurring theme when Nicky Mao talks about music. She studied Creative Writing in New York, but eventually came to build her language through music, under the alias Hiro Kone. She had a strong connection with music since she was very young, but not just because she played it as a kid—a lot of her memories are attached to songs her family were playing when something happened; the solitariness she experienced growing up as an only child also deepened her engagement with music. It took her years, however, before she discovered that out of everything she had been interested in, including writing, that music most appealed to her and made sense for her. Music was the language she was meant to use for communication.
Actual words could be intense and permanent, and Nicky knows that. “Even though I went to school for writing and even though I studied it, I saw how words are so extremely powerful. I have so much admiration for writers but music just felt more like a comfortable place for me to express myself…because I’m interested in language outside of words, I’m interested in like the space between words, I’m interested in silence, I’m interested in the things that we don’t say as much as the things we do say, or why we repeat certain things.” Things Nicky is interested in exist within sounds, and she could achieve them with sounds, in her own way.
Sculpture is another constant reference point—music doesn’t just sonically appeal to her, it’s also physical and visual. Shapes, texture, colour, objects…these things also exist in music for her; music is matte, or shiny, or porous.
Growing up playing string instruments—the violin as a kid and the guitar in a punk band as a teenager, she now works mostly with modular synths. It’s a time consuming process to work this way. “I don’t always know the shape, it takes time for me to see what that ecosystem is going to be like,” Nicky says. She would start with sketching one long piece on the modular, and then start to chisel this piece of material, add stuff, take away stuff—mostly take away stuff—and start to give it its definition. “That takes time for me to do that, and to sit with it and know what direction I want to go with that.”
During the pandemic, space has also become an increasingly important topic that Nicky dwells on. On the space that music exists in: she couldn’t bring herself to do livestream performance in lockdown due to the absence of space—“The sound within that space (when playing music live) and the vibration and the reverb and all those things are extremely important.” But also beyond that physical space. Alerted to this momentum of moving our life online, Nicky took a step back and observed rather than joining the party unquestioningly. Her reflection on capitalism, techno-facism, the polarity between the rapid “progress” made in technology and the dire material reality of many people, a lot of which she had explored even pre-pandemic, culminated into the intuitive directive “resist the urge to fill the space”, under which she wrote her 4th full-length album, Silvercoat the throng. I talked to Nicky about the transience, silence, shadow and space—most of these things point to a void that we most likely lack and actively seek refuge from.
Interview by Anlin Liang
For me, when I listen to your music, I see something more cinematic. Someone else might have written that your music could be used to soundtrack Jorodowsky’s version of Dune.
Yeah a lot of people think of science fiction, which is totally fine. I think of more…one of the directors I really like, Jia Zhangke. That slow cinema he does, that to me is what I feel like. I love his work. He uses music in interesting ways, too.
What’s your favourite film of his?
I love Ash is Purest White, which is a more recent one. And recently I saw Still Life, which is really good too. I’m reading a quite long interview with him right now in a book my friend published, it’s really interesting. I admire him so much. And I like Bi Gan. And then Tsai Ming-liang. So this probably gives you a sense of some of the visual aspects I am drawn to.
How do you relate to their films?
If you live between worlds in a way, say, you’re a child of immigrant, for instance, like myself, who came here, there’s always this feeling of longing and transience. Because I went back and forth between Asia and the US, there’s this feeling of existing somewhere between both worlds. There’s a recognizable ecosystem to Jia Zhangke’s films, that centers a lot around the displacement or the migration of people. People within different regions of China moving to different places for different reasons, and the destabilization and things that happen as a result of this. It’s of course very different than my personal experience, but there are certain tones and emotions that feel familiar and help me understand the world around me better. There’s something striking and interesting to see these things reflected through those films—the expression of what that transience feels like, and how there’re different forms of it: some of it is just outright displacement and erasure, and it can be really negative and sad. At other times it can feel very touching and comforting as people find ways in which to relate to one another.
Do you feel like a nomad?
There’s a quality to my work and to who I am that feels very nomadic and feels like a hybrid—never quite felt like at home here, never quite felt at home there. However, often I think to myself when I’m in motion, “How at home I feel.”
What’s your relationship with Hong Kong like?
It’s strange but I get really homesick for the city, though in a way I’m always a bit of an outsider because I was never a permanent resident. But I know it in this really deep way because I spent so much time alone there, exploring the city. I feel as though my senses are heightened when I’m there. The humidity, the colors, the smell, all of it is really easy for me to visualize, even when I’ve been away for a long time. I remember when I was a teenager and discovered Wong Kar Wai it felt so exhilarating to see the city projected on the screen like that. I didn’t have any way of sharing with my friends in California this other city I knew and loved, so the sudden proliferation and popularity of his films with western audiences was kind of exciting for me.
I always want more time in Hong Kong. I miss it quite a lot, more so than I do California. Maybe there’s something about the coming and going, the absence of it that makes it more special to me. It’s a huge part of who I am, yet it remains a mystery I think to the people in my life here in the US who have never been. There are awkward moments where I feel really cognizant of how out of step I feel with certain aspects of American culture. It meant a lot to me when Gavin from HKCR reached out to ask me to be a resident last year. It felt a little like being recognized in some way, the past saying, “You belong here, too.”
Have you been to Hong Kong at all?
Yeah, I lived quite near there for my entire life.
Do you like it? Do you feel a connection to it?
Every time I went there I would stay with a cousin who live in a subdivided unit. She was a restaurant worker. So I know what it’s like if you don’t have much living in that city.
The disparity in wealth in Hong Kong has to be one of the worst in the world, it really is a city that caters to a class system which echos it’s British colonialist roots.
I want to ask about your new album. It’s created during the pandemic and it comes from this idea “resist the urge to fill the space”. I could very straightforwardly relate it to a frustration a lot of people—at least people who don’t have to work the low paying “essential” jobs— have expressed during the massive lockdown: now we have all the time, what are we gonna do? But could you tell me where the idea comes from?
I think…If we don’t step back and observe the direction we are taking, how are we going to really know what steps need to be taken. This idea that I’m expressing was really heightened during the pandemic. There was a rush to move everything online. A lot of my works talk about capitalism—there was a rush because of the way that the machineries working to keep it going and there was a lot of promoting of that behaviour to move everything online: zoom calls, our exercise routines, education, everything. I’m not saying that all of this is necessarily bad. I also understand why people need contact with one another, and why people felt the propulsion towards this. But I just want also to take a step back and think about what that means though—what we are giving these companies, what information of ourselves more we are giving freely over to what I believe we have to be really wary of. Also what does this constant productivity keep us from learning about ourselves and the world around us.
I think that we are under threat of techno-fascism, and I think that is something we don’t talk about enough, and we don’t talk about how deeply embedded that is into all of this. We have governments who are now beholden to these technological companies—one can just see the tax breaks to understand how in bed Government is with Big Tech. And the more that we consumers become dependent on the technology, the more influence they have in control over our lives so…it feels like a concern about the fact that we were so quick to just accept this and move it all on to online. It’s like the perfect storm for them. They love it! That was one thing. There are a lot of things I think that fit into that whole idea of not wanting to fill the space that we suddenly had in our lives, to maybe consider other modes of existence, other modes of collaboration and working together.
It’s a correlation with other albums and things that I’ve been talking about in the past with my work, like the previous album A Fossil Begins to Bray. A lot of these ideas are sort of in continuation. Progress without thinking about what we’re progressing towards is not what I’m personally after. Or it’s just like feeding this machine when I feel like we have an opportunity to maybe reimagine things.
”I think that we are under threat of techno-fascism, and I think that is something we don’t talk about enough, and we don’t talk about how deeply embedded that is into all of this.”
We need to rethink what progress means—is progress necessarily “good”?
Yes. People get really enamoured with progress. I guess that’s part of why I love Zhangke’s films too, going back to that. I’m interested in the effects of that trickle down, the effects of this type of thinking—what progress is. It has real life effects on people. I’m interested in that and interested in how to fight that, or how we can respond to that, and say ”no”.
Have you seen Summer of Soul, the documentary? It was about Harlem Cultural Festival that happened in 1969, the same year when the first moon landing in human history happened. A black man in the audience was interviewed and he was asked what he thought of this event. He basically said all that money could have been used to fix poverty and housing problem and such. You know the media is talking about how no one is enthusiastic about all this billionaires space race recently, but when I saw that interview in the film I realized it was not a novel sentiment.
You know what I’m thinking about and really illustrated that. I’m interested in real transformation, and not just progress for the sake of progress. It’s a very Western idea, which has been indoctrinated everywhere. Do you know the philosopher Byung Chul-han?
Yes I heard of him.
He says the same, and I’ve said it before, too. Everyone’s on the screen all the time, it’s like the light doesn’t break. So if the light doesn’t break, we don’t see the shadows. I think we need to be able to see the shadows, in order to see the definition of the things that we need to consider and think about. And so if we’re just living constantly in the positive, this transparent screen constantly, we can’t see what’s behind it. It’s just something I think a lot about, and our perceptions of things. I guess that’s why I’m really interested in the shadow or taking that step back and allowing that space to be there—so that I can see better.
You told me earlier that you are interested in silence, in unsaid things, which I would relate to the shadow that you just talked about—could you give me an example of this silence in your experience?
When I was a kid I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, with my grandmother. Unfortunately, I didn’t speak Cantonese, I know some words but not a lot. And she didn’t speak English. Our way of communicating encompasses the silences as well as the piecing things together from my very broken Cantonese and her very broken English. We were able to communicate with our broken languages, our faces, with our gestures and our silences. You experience that range of communication first-hand, and it shows you potential, and so you want to observe more. And then I can also think of things like sitting at the dinner table with my family, sometimes they’re speaking to me, sometimes they’re speaking about me, but in another language, sometimes I’m talking to my grandfather who speaks perfect English; you just get comfortable with these different ways of communication—not always knowing what people are saying, and then knowing and then hearing something there, or suddenly there’s a silence that comes over the dinner table, and people are just comfortable. That’s all really interesting to me. I learned a lot about being alone and quiet during my summers there. Because I was an only child, I didn’t have siblings, I didn’t have a lot of young friends around when I was living with them. I think this experience made me a good listener. Listening is so undervalued.
I’m glad that you mentioned you wanted real transformation. I struggle sometimes to reconcile the thoughts of loving art for art’s sake and questioning “what is this for?”
Yeah exactly. Whatever small platform I have, I want to use it to have discussions like this. I was saying earlier—it’s nice to talk about music and how we made it, but I’m more interested in what you and I are talking about. A bigger picture. Yeah, I make electronic music, I made a piece, it came out on vinyl, but it’s a more holistic thing that I’m considering in my work. I’m interested in how sharing ideas can move us in a better direction, and if my music in some way can be a part of that movement, in a very small way, then that feels like a life well-lived.
You love sculptor Jorge Oteiza and once shared this quote by him: “Art does not transform anything, it does not alter the world, it does not change reality. What the artist really transforms, as he evolves, transforms and completes his languages, is himself. And it is that man, transformed by art, who can, through life, transform reality.”
I was meant to ask how that applied to your own experience as an artist but I guessed you just answered.
Yeah it’s that process that I’m interested in. How we become better members of society and how we build better kinship with our environment. We’re living in an increasingly narcissistic time, one that focuses us inwards and necessitates constant empty affirmation.
Asking yourself what kind of relationship you want to have with the world is really crucial. If I’m going to do anything in my life, music, or something entirely different, it has to have a quality of care for others.
”We’re living in an increasingly narcissistic time, one that focuses us inwards and necessitates constant empty affirmation.
Asking yourself what kind of relationship you want to have with the world is really crucial. If I’m going to do anything in my life, music, or something entirely different, it has to have a quality of care for others.”
What books have informed you on your views?
I recently read Ruha Benjamin’s Race after Technology, and felt it was very timely—given our increasing reliance on technology. She writes about how emerging technology reinforces white supremacy. I also mentioned Byung Chul-Han. I love some Donna Haraway as well, (she writes about) our relationship with the world around us, not just human relationships. But this year I actually read mostly poetry—going back to this thing of needing space. In the past I’d read a lot of critical theory, and I just couldn’t bring myself to do much of that over the past two years. I took a break and started reading poetry. Because there was space there for my brain, and space to breathe, too.
Who are your favourite poets?
I love Percy Shelley a lot. I visited his grave which is tucked away in Rome, in a small cemetery where dozens of cats live. It felt like a really fitting spot
. I recently discovered this Iranian poet Garous Abdolmalekian, he was just translated to English for the first time. I really recommend this collection Lean Against This Late Hour.
Finally, can we talk about your support for the BDS Movement? You have been a supporter for quite a long time.
For me it has never been a question whether Palestine should be free and that what was taking place there was a colonial project, orchestrated by a number of western powers. You have a state government (Israel) that is armed to the teeth and then you have a vulnerable population either living under occupation or exile. These are not equal players. Anyone who familiarizes themselves with the history of the events following World War II should see clearly this is a continuation of oppression and erasure. Homes are taken or razed to the ground all the time in occupied Palestine. The practice is plain and simple – to erase any historical evidence that is Palestine. That’s why we cannot remain silent.
When I visited Palestine in 2019, I visited Jordan first. Many of my friends in Amman are Palestinian and could not travel with me into Palestine to the festival I was attending in Ramallah. What does that say? They’re Palestinian, I’m American – how does it work that I’m allowed and they are not. Because I have this US passport. My friends who do not hold the “right” documentation cannot move freely while others with Israeli, British or American passports can. That says a lot about the disparity of the world and who maintains power.
I reside in a country that pours billions of dollars into the Israeli “defense” forces. Really they are “occupation” forces, used to repress the Palestinian people and keep them living in terror. I spoke with a young man in Hebron who told me the story of how the IOF tried to plant a knife on him when he was teenager and if it weren’t for his neighbor looking out the window at the right time, they would have shot him. The US plays such a large role in what is taking place there. We are so entwined and responsible for what is taking place. This is why I support my Palestinian friends and their right to return
Hiro Kone’s 4th LP Silvercoat the throng is out now on Dais Records, listen.